d16y8 obd2 cam gear vs. d16y8 with z6 cam gear

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d16y8 obd2 cam gear vs. d16y8 with z6 cam gear

hjdanzi Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:31 am

Hello Guys... yeah yeah, old discussion, but ive couldnt find a straight answer... people were banned just for arguing this.

In the past ive tuned an obd2 y8 with the y8 cams... Ive noticed that i needed some extreme advanced timing for it to idle... Anyway... besides that, i could tuned the car very well (this was last year, march i believe...)...

Now after reading some threads (very olds)... ive found some old discussions were they said that the d16y8 ecu (obd2) has something to do with the timing of the cam gear.. so basically when you convert to obd1 to tune it., then you lose a lot of Hp's... since the obd2 cam gears couldnt be controlled anymore by the obd1 ecu... so the cam would be retarded...

Someone said, that the real solution to this problem, was to buy a z6 cam gear (obd1) swap it, and retard timing from the cam gear by 4° (i dont recall it) then tune it like any other obd1 car....

I really want to know if this is true.... I didnt have a problem in my first tune, but then again.. i didnt compare d16y8 with stock cam gear vs. d16y8 with z6 cam gear.

Im sure that both maps (p28 vs y8 map).. are exactly the same.. besides base timing since y8 has a base timing of 12 and z6 16.

If anyone wants to shread some light, it will be greatly appreciate it since i have a tuning to do... and i dont know if it would be good to buy some z6 cam gear...and do something to it... im not interested in discussing this thing, since ive read millons of thread.. i just want a direct answer, like DO THIS and you will be fine....

Thanks...

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moozregie Sat May 07, 2011 3:04 am

i've been banned on d-series.org (molecule°) a few times for expressing my heavily researched opinion on these matters
the best thing i can tell you is match your cam gear to your ecu
if running an obd1 computer using ANY management or STOCK ECU then use the obd1 (stamped steel) PM3B cam gear or equivalent
worth mentioning is that the stock obd1 PM3B gears horizontal lines DO NOT line up with the horizontal surface of the motor at TDC...they will be sloped down (lower on the front of the car/motor side)
your base ignition timing will be that of all obd1/obd0 d-series motors at 16° btdc even if using an obd2 motor (d16y8,d16y7,d16y5)
i am not sure yet about neptune but i know ectune and hondata have workarounds for obd2 d-series motors, which you should NOT use if following these methods.
once you bolt on the obd1 cam gear you now have an obd1 equivalent motor...if using an obd1 based computer...and should be tuned like any obd1 d16 with minor adjustments for the differing head design.
dont forget that obd2 crank pulleys have markings for the obd2 motor at 10°/12°/14°...whereas the obd1 pulleys are marked at 14°/16°/18°...so you will need to also use an obd1 crank pulley or estimate the 16 degree mark
if you are stuck using an obd2 crank pulley and do not wish to estimate the 16° mark...using the 14° mark will not kill your motor...it will actually give your motor a small margin of safety if tuning for turbo.
so when timing the motor make sure you understand these markings completely
that's it

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ncturbocivic Sun May 08, 2011 9:24 pm

Here's the thing. You can search J.Davis or Joseph Davis on Honda-Tech or google that plus D16Y8 or some such and get the answer you are looking for. The thing is this, the Y8 doesnt like as much timing as the Z6. The relationship of crank to cam on the Y8 is dieffernt than the Z6. Meaning that one engine has more teeth count than the other. The math will show you why the timing is different (12 vs 16 base timing.) The maps are different and that is becuase the Y8 has a knock sensor and the computer rides on that knock sensor feedback. Dont bother switching anything off the Y8. Use it stock and keep the timing low once in boost.

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moozregie Mon May 09, 2011 7:17 am

^^^ this is proven to be wrong and i will die fighting the j. davis nutswingers who dont know anything about what they are saying
all obd2 motors use the same technology within the ecu...REGARDLESS OF KNOCK SENSOR..which is only used on the d16y8 & y5...but not the y7...has nothing to do with knock directly.
ALL D-SERIES SOHC MOTORS 88-01 HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TEETH ON THEIR CAM AND CRANK PULLEY GEARS
THE RELATIONSHIP OF CRANK TO CAM IS EXACTLY THE SAME, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, MOST IMPORTANTLY :::: THE CAM GEAR ::::
the misconception that the y8 doesn't like timing is because they are no longer using the stock obd2 ecu...they are using obd1 ecu control...BLIND AS A BAT TO THEIR OWN ACTIONS.
this all stems from J.Davis's 'solution' by inventing the d16y8 obd1 'basemap' which does not represent anything known from oem honda code...nor the actual single mechanical difference, the cam gear.
the d16 is a fairly simple design across all years of its production...the differences of the y8 head design DO NOT warrant major timing differences from their obd0/obd1 brothers
the cast iron cam gears of the obd2 d-series motors are produced ˝ tooth off from the obd0/obd1 stamped steel PM3B cam gear to phase the powerband higher in rpm to reduce emissions at the lower testing rpm.
using the j.davis method involves fooling yourself into believing the obd2 motor is SO different from its brothers you fail to even be able to explain simple engine mechanics and the ACTUAL differences between these generations design
its an incomplete understanding to say the least
using an obd1 cam gear IMMEDIATELY CEASES THE NEED FOR ANY FURTHER EXPLANATION, MATHEMATICS, TOM-FOOLERY, RISK OF "SPECIAL" TUNING NEEDS, SHORTNESS OF BREATH, of why this works...which is clearly stated above if you should need THE TRUTH.
CAUTION, please consult your doctor if you feel light headed trying to understand the J.Davis hack method. Some people who have taken the J.Davis method have become compulsive, nut swingers. Do not use the J.Davis method if you enjoy simplicity and exuberance of understanding how things work...and how they have always worked. Th obd2 d-series motor is not some magical magician offered from a car company to exceed all human understanding from its brother of just one year prior with virtually the same specifications, fuel consumption, power output, physical size in capacity and weights, and basic mechanical operation. Side effects of the J.Davis method include becoming someone like the previous poster who cannot hold their own with relevant FACTS.
Needing a solution for your engine management on the whole when confronted by such daunting tasks of understanding can be frustrating for anyone who has made it this far looking for answers why y8 motors blow more than z6's ever will.
Aside from an under par flowing oil pump and inferior oil delivering crank shaft...an obd2 d-series motor converted to obd1 now has altered timing from the cam gear alone...your cam timing MUST be reflected by the code in your management.
When using all current obd1 tuning solutions...including an UNCHIPPED STOCK ECU...you are using OEM OBD1 CODE to run the motor AT ALL LEVELS & CONDITIONS.
FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THIS CHOICE OF YOURS IS THE FAILURE OF UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OBD1 D-SERIES MOTOR AND THE OBD2 D-SERIES MOTOR AND WHAT YOUR RESULTANT ACTIONS SHOULD BE.
the ONLY differences are: different computer, different cam gear (roughly 4.75° offset)...slightly smaller combustion chamber, slightly different port design...END OF STORY
the differences in combustion chamber size are offset by slightly different piston dish resulting in a near identical static compression ratio between obd2/obd1 motors.
the total difference in what each of these motors represent is so minimal...you have to lie to yourself and the rest of the world should you fail to understand these SMALL differences...
y8/z6 cams are identical...i'm sorry you are wrong if you believe different...its proven
the only difference is cam gears...if you change your computer to obd1 then use the obd1 cam gear and run d16z6 code (which all obd1 engine management is based on...YOU DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE IN THIS MATTER IF USING ANY OBD1 MANAGEMENT)
when you wake up from lying to yourself may you help someone else by passing on something so overrun by misunderstanding yet so simple to understand in terms of a mere comparison.

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HRTuning Mon May 09, 2011 2:51 pm

Wow, is all I can say. Apparently you needed to vent.

And all OBD1 code is not based on the P28 code base (D16z6). NepTune certainly isn't. Smile

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ncturbocivic Tue May 10, 2011 8:31 pm

Well I fully enjoyed your rant. My apologies if I didnt actually go out and count the teeth on my Y8 cam before spouting off. The off set of degrees is what I was trying to get at. Oh well. My fault. The original Y8 basemap was on my car. It was on Crome (P30) and yes it was done somewhat blindly. Oh well. All I know for sure at the end of the day is that its table timing ( with timing sync'd at dizzy!) was much much lower than what you would expect to see compared to a Z6. It made good power and it ran very very well every day for over 2 years ( 45,000 miles) when I pulled the motor to put in a B series.

Why exactly are you so frustrated with J. Davis exactly anyway?

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moozregie Wed May 11, 2011 10:58 am

i didn't mean to imply all obd1 code used for management is based on d16z6 code...what i specifically was aiming at is ANYTHING BUT OBD2 code....
since obd2 code has not been fully revealed and there is certainly nothing contained in it that could be directly used on any obd1 ecu as the msm66507 chip is far more complex and not compatible
beyond that...my issues with j.davis are specifically only this issue as the source of the original 'solution' to this mechanical & program difference between obd2 and obd1 d-series motors
i participated in the original discussion on the issue on pgmfi back in the day and easily saw then he was off base in his assessment and solution and tried to participate but was met with severe rebuttle...
as in...not willing to participate in any form of discussion on the matter...taking the high road of..."i'm right and you're wrong" attitude since day one...
now pretty much everyone looks at me thinking i have the same attitude...but at least i'm still willing to lay it all out there as best as i understand it to hopefully spread awareness instead of nutswingers & misinformation and an overall hack job
like anything...when looking for answers and someone just tells you to consult 'that guy' because an apparent explanation seems to not exist and cant be spat out with ease...this is your sign that you have found something worth spending your time on
at least that is how it is for me
it made no sense to me when i tried his method on y7 and i knew these motors were not enough different to really warrant such significant difference in management
especially since the y7 doesn't even have the smaller combustion chambers like the y8/y5...same size as the z6 even...i knew it was wrong
the y8/y7/y5 absolutely do not require any "special" timing...
the j.davis method may work...but in the end...its inferior because its based on a lack of understanding...when the sensible and even easier solution is to simply swap out the cam gear and run the same basic tune as on any obd1 d16...
the distributor will be CENTERED and everything will be as if the motor was obd1

look forward to learning neptune...i dont know much about it.
i presume its based on oem honda code...didn't mean to imply specifically z6

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HRTuning Wed May 11, 2011 2:43 pm

OBD2 code has been revealed and the 66507 isn't a much more complicated chip as it's still a 66K based processor (Very similar). The y8 base rom (And several other base roms) and tools for it were available on pgmfi.org at one point. Probably still are.

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moozregie Thu May 12, 2011 2:38 am

HRTuning wrote:OBD2 code has been revealed and the 66507 isn't a much more complicated chip as it's still a 66K based processor (Very similar). The y8 base rom (And several other base roms) and tools for it were available on pgmfi.org at one point. Probably still are.


i remember a guy from Philippines/Malaysia (i believe) who has been modifying/chipping the 66507 for quite some years...2001 at least...it had limitations...but he's been getting it done
http://www.autoserve.8m.com/StepByStep_OBDII/Chip_Installation_OBD_II.html

and his emulator circa 2002
http://www.autoserve.8m.com/OBD2Emu2.html

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ncturbocivic Thu May 12, 2011 2:42 am

I think they are mirrored somewhere outside of pgmfi.org. Its been some time since I have been back to that site. The end all to the question you are asking is just to take the car to the dyno and finish the tune. Then you will have your map. You could just make street pulls and look at your plugs to see how the car is doing with the timing you have already. Sync the timing in Neptune and tune the map. I'm sorry I cant offer anything else.

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moozregie Thu May 12, 2011 2:52 am

awaiting the neptune thunderchip T-REX release 2011
Laughing

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HRTuning Thu May 12, 2011 2:53 am

I won't ever support that era of OBD2 because the processors aren't flashable. Smile

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moozregie Thu May 12, 2011 3:06 am

you know there is an eeprom somewhere
last i checked (circa 2003 lol):
http://www.nuhorizons.com/
i believe oki has or had one direct as well

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HRTuning Thu May 12, 2011 4:05 am

I'm not sure what you mean. There's no location on those ECUs for an eeprom. If you mean replacing the processor with the flashable version, I'm not willing to do that. It's simply not worth the time to desolder and solder another one in (Or a socket for that matter).

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moozregie Thu May 12, 2011 4:31 am

his t-rex emulator sat right on top of the stock chip
http://www.autoserve.8m.com/OBD2Emu2.html
just stirring the pot

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