Intermittently VERY Rich + Electrical Gremlins?

Reply to topic
    Reply with quote

Intermittently VERY Rich + Electrical Gremlins?

XpL0d3r Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:19 pm

Hey guys, I've posted this on other Honda forums and have yet to find an answer...

I have a JDM B18B with an Autoworks kit, tuned with whatever Neptune license the tuners at Synapse Motorsports in NY gave me.. chipped P06 automatic that was converted to 5 speed..
Running DSM 450cc injectors, cleaned and flow tested.
"Glowshift" Wideband AFR
Stock D16Y7 harness
Auto/Manual conversion

Anyways... installed the turbo stuff, limped the car to the tuner (Synapse) with the basemap I had on there..

I get a call from teh tuner about some problems.. first, the car was intermittently running LEAN on the dyno.. randomly. All sensors are hooked up except secondary o2 (don't need it since I'm catless with OBD1) and my IAT (ordered a flange from Xenocron, should be here today)..

They got it tuned on the dyno, but I'm now experiencing weird electrical / RICH issues..

I'm assuming they disabled the ELD, correct? I have no CEL for it, but if I jump the connectors I get code 20, which is ELD.

Car idles rich (~11.7 - 12.5 average.. already very rich.. should be around 14.7, correct?)... but when I turn my headlights on (HID's, they take a lot of power to initially turn on), the wideband instantly goes to 10.0 (lowest the gauge goes, so I can assume it's ever richer).. and the car bogs down, making it undrivable.

I took the HID's out and put halogens in.. seems to run much better. BUT I should be able to run HIDs with a turbo setup so it sounds to me like there's electrical problem somewhere.

Also, three times at random the car would bog down super rich again. and stay at a 10.0 even with no headlights.. If I turn the car off/on again it runs fine.

I removed the ELD completely.. but since then I started blowing fuse #15.. so I put it back in thinking thats the reason.

Can anyone help me out to see why I'm running super rich and seem to have electrical problems? I tried looking for shorts in wires, checked grounds.. all seem fine. I called the tuner they said get the IAT hooked up and come in for a retune.. but I still think there is some sort of electrical issue...

Thanks!

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:41 pm

If you get a code for ELD then they didn't disable it. Disabling keeps the code from coming up.

You need an IAT sensor, which contributes to the fuel trims. Until you get one there's no point in looking into this further.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:54 pm

IAT is now in. I had one plugged in before, just was dangling. Now it is actually in the chargepiping. I should also mention the ELD does not trigger the CEL to come on, but when I jump the service connectors it is there.

This still happens. Charging system fuse blew the other day, and keeps blowing now. I cannot find any wire shorts. Car is at the tuner now, they tell me to get a new engine harness (I'm still using the y7 automatic one, they said to get a 5 speed one now), and new fuse box with ELD. I do not think the ELD is the issue. I DO think this problem is being caused by the same reason the car runs rich when electrical power is being thrown around.

Tuner also said car should be idling mid 13's not 14.7 incase there is a lean spike or something it will help to prevent detonation. I guess that makes sense, though I think low 11's on cold idle still seems low. They will not retune until this issue is fixed, which sounds to me like its either IN the tune, or I have a short somewhere, or bad resistor box?

Any more suggestions before I go replacing things. Sounds like the tuner is just guessing at it unfortunately. I had them check battery offsets in the tune, though I hear a bad resistor box may cause this? Input?

Thanks.

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:34 pm

Sorry, there's way too much involved for me to start guessing.

If you're blowing fueses you have a serious problem somewhere.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:02 pm

If there is no CEL for the ELD, but the code is stored when I jump the connector, does that mean they disabled the ELD? Assuming disabling it causes the CEL to stay off, though the code still remains stored?

I believe there is a wire short, which I am looking in to now. I've read up on the ELD, just unsure of what disabling it in the software actually does.

Thanks

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:15 pm

You can clear the code by keying the car to on, pushing the gas pedal down so the code starts blinking, and pressing the brake pedal during this process.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:49 pm

Ahh okay thank you. I talked to the tuner (Synapse Motorsports in NY), and they disabled the ELD, then renabled it (why i'm not sure), then disabled it again. They do not trust my car's harness right now since it's an automatic harness still (I did an auto/manual conversion on the car).. I will be replacing the entire engine harness with a new manual one, so we'll see what happens then.

Thanks

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:55 pm

Awesome. I hope you guys get it figured out!

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:20 pm

UPDATE:

Just got car back from the folks at Synapse. Car still has an issue. HOWEVER, I was mistaken about what the error actually is.

In a nutshell: Start car from cold start. Runs fine UNTIL it's warmed up. Then will IDLE at max rich, however when getting on the gas, it runs LEAN (anywhere from mid 16's to low 17's on the AFR). Turning the car off/on usually fixes this. And warm start it runs fine. This leads me to believe there's a sensor issue. So, I looked into the o2 sensor and found this nice thread:

http://www.civicforums.com/forums/7-honda-civic-diys-civic-tech-chat/291370-car-runs-lean-18-20-afr-update-post-19-a.html

And interestingly enough, guy has SAME problem as me. He replaces his o2 sensor, and still has the problem, but says this:

Well, fuel pump replaced, O2 sensor replaced. Guess what??? PROBLEM still there and I threw a code p0132(HO2S bank 1 high voltage). Interestingly though, the problem only happens 1 min after startup. Once I shut the car off and start again, prblem goes away.

I did some more research on it. Our O2 governs AFR once it reaches operating temp is met and/or time limit. It seems like though, the sensor is passing overly rich readings(high voltage, therefore ECU leans out fuel as a feedback) when the ECU starts to take signals from it.

Apparently, in my case, when I shut down and restart my car, I get another minute before signals from the o2 sensor are used. By then, the sensor warms up, good signals are being pass to the ECU and thats why I can drive it.

The only problems that I should be having is faulty sensor heating and/or sensor voltage are being interfered with. Possibly the ground in wires are interefereing with the voltage signal wire. That makes sense as sensor warms, voltage resistance in the heating element goes up there cutting off the interferences to btn the heating/signal wires......thats why I can drive when the car is warmed up.

I'll check everything and then let you guys know.


Then he never let us know, of course. lol. Would the O2 sensor have anything to do with this issue? Like he said when he restarts the car he gets another minute before signals from the o2 sensor. My o2 sensor DID drag on the ground for a while, but I checked (though rather quickly) and didn't see any wire damage. But this guy says he replaced the o2 sensor and still has the issue.

Does any of this info give you any ideas? Injector wires/resistor box are good. Replacing alternator, and o2 sensor, and if car still runs like ass, whole engine harness (ready to go in). If you can, read that thread, a lot of information in there.

EDIT: Just talked to the tuner. He says my o2 sensor is disabled? So maybe this is not the issue at all? I thought I needed at least one o2 sensor in there to correctly monitor/adjust A/F ratios?

EDIT2 So no O2 sensor means open loop, right? meaning it's taking feedback from the fuel tables deals with the MAP sensor. But why would it cut out once warmed up? Then be fine when I restart the car?

Thanks for your time!

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:29 pm

Not if you were put in closed loop, then it's just tuning or your setup. If Synapse tuned it and you're still having a problem, it's probably hardware. Either way it still needs to be diagnosed by your tuner, since you don't have an RTP.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:38 pm

HRTuning wrote:Not if you were put in closed loop, then it's just tuning or your setup. If Synapse tuned it and you're still having a problem, it's probably hardware. Either way it still needs to be diagnosed by your tuner, since you don't have an RTP.


Tuner said this in an email to me:

your car is running in open loop. we do not want the factory narrowband o2 sensor adjusting a/f from where it has been tuned as the target a/f (set by closed loop) is different from turbo set ups from the stock setup. Also I don't want the ecu adjusting the idle a/f - which is specifically tuned for dsm injectors not oem injectors.


At idle, my AFR fluctuatels slightly, anywhere from 13.1 to 13.5 or so warm, and anywhere from 11.1 to 11.7 cold.. when it's not having this rich/lean issue, of course.

I've brought it back to the tuner, and they will not do anything else until I get the new engine harness in. They strongly think that may be the problem. I have had no problems with it until we installed the boost stuff. I will be replacing that, the alternator, and ELD (even though I do not think it's that, ya never know). [/quote]

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:42 pm

If you have things to replace and a path of where to go from the current position you're in, I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. It's irrelevant until that new stuff is in because everything can change once you change that stuff out.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:22 pm

I'm not looking for an answer, just simply other suggestions as to what the issue may be, or if there are other things that may affect the cars performance. My point in doing so, is as a precaution to when I change these things out. What IF I change the harness, alternator, and ELD, and it still has an issue. Rather than posting and waiting for people to reply, I've been asking now just in case. That way IF suggestions from tuner don't work for whatever reason (not saying they won't, I really hope what they've said fixes it), I already have ideas of other possibilities/issues right off hand to try. I go back to school in 5 weeks, and I need the car, so the more ideas I get ahead of time, the better. I'm taking all the advice from the tuners, just merely looking for others' opinions or suggestions on the situation.

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address

    Reply with quote

HRTuning Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:41 pm

Gotcha. Sorry I'm unable to help more.

_________________
Like us on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/NepTuneEngineManagement

HRTuning

 
Posts: 10423
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
    Send private message View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address

    Reply with quote

XpL0d3r Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:00 pm

No problem, just a little frustrated. Once I find out what it is though (I have a very strong feeling Synapse is right about the harness), I will update.

Thanks

XpL0d3r

 
Posts: 13
Joined: 10 Sep 2010
Location: MA
    Send private message View user's profile AIM Address


Reply to topic

NepTune Chip Based Questions/Comments

 

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum